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FF after the Fact statements...
03-10-2014, 12:15 PM,
#31
FF after the Fact statements...
mdc777, was there an After the fact statement that you feel has a connection to, What IT is? in the poem.



EDIT: Do you also feel that the it in, Begin IT where... and take IT in the canyon... are the same?
Reply
03-10-2014, 12:42 PM,
#32
FF after the Fact statements...


<div class="bbcode_quote_head">Quote:
<b>Quote from mdc777 on March 10, 2014, 11:52 am</b>

everything FF says is technically true but misleading. The trick is to know how he intends it so to speak.
</div>


It's funny, but I wouldn't want someone DIGGING up my back yard either... I think what Forrest INTENDS is...



<b>Hey, You, Yea You, with the MAROON SHIRT ON, the mountains, north of Santa Fe are THAT WAY... from 66,000 links out, all the way to MONTANA </b> Big Grin



<b>... NOW, get out of my YARD !!! ...</b>



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[/img]

.



Big Grin
Reply
03-10-2014, 01:36 PM,
#33
FF after the Fact statements...
Jason, That was { for me anyways} very interesting, More mechanical. I see the finalization of the solve that way. But the poem still needs to be understood. I see the poem as 3 stages. The last stage being more Mechanical in nature than the first two stages. Some say there is a beginning, a middle, and an end. That is true in literature. I see the poem telling you what you are looking for {1}. Then tells you how to get too a location and why {2} Then you must Figure out the mechanics to solve the problem {3} all this rolled into One very cleverly written poem. It's just a different way that I see the poem's structure. So for me 'Mechanical in way', really is a great way of looking at it.
Reply
03-10-2014, 02:05 PM,
#34
FF after the Fact statements...
Kenning... that was my word of the day. Needed to look that up. But yes. If a reader just uses one method to look at the poem then, I think, it will mislead them in the wrong direction. This may have been the authors intent and the reason for the statement.

" It is difficult but not impossible". Anyways that is just and opinion.

Reply
03-10-2014, 02:30 PM,
#35
FF after the Fact statements...
Well your right. I'll never forget what Kenning means now, It Ranks right up on the top of my definition list!!
Reply
03-10-2014, 02:39 PM,
#36
FF after the Fact statements...
<i>mdc777, was there an After the fact statement that you feel has a connection to, What IT is? in the poem. </i>EDIT:



No I do not. Why? Forrest said he doesn't give out info that would help a searcher one way or another and that would be a biggie!



<i>Do you also feel that the it in, Begin IT where... and take IT in the canyon... are the same? </i>



Yes. I feel IT is something we have to discover. Not physically in the Rocky Mountains but a event or a person that we follow. (See my post under New Mexico). For a long time I thought it was the Old Spanish Trail.
Reply
03-10-2014, 02:43 PM,
#37
FF after the Fact statements...


<div class="bbcode_quote_head">Quote:
<b>Quote from mdc777 on March 10, 2014, 3:39 pm</b>

Forrest said he doesn't give out info that would help a searcher one way or another and that would be a biggie!
</div>


Exactly... # of links North of Santa Fe, may as well be # of links West of Toledo... for their helpfulness...



.
Reply
03-10-2014, 03:05 PM,
#38
FF after the Fact statements...


<div class="bbcode_quote_head">Quote:
<b>Quote from Jason on March 10, 2014, 8:32 am</b>

Fenn has said that there are "dancing ladies" on the chest
</div>


No he hasn't.



See:



http://www.chasechat.com/chat/?minglefor...ostid-3947



(The original post title and text has changed after the fact, it used to cite "Dancing Girls" as quoted in my response above).
Reply
03-10-2014, 07:21 PM,
#39
FF after the Fact statements...


<div class="bbcode_quote_head">Quote:
<b>Quote from mdc777 on March 10, 2014, 11:52 am</b>

everything FF says is technically true but misleading.
</div>


It isn't technically true that he was shot down twice in 18 days. it isn't technically true that he flew however many missions he said he flew in TTOTC. Or do you have knowledge to the contrary?
Reply
03-10-2014, 08:47 PM,
#40
FF after the Fact statements...


<div class="bbcode_quote_head">Quote:
<b>Quote from John Brown on March 10, 2014, 8:21 pm</b>
<div class="bbcode_quote">
<div class="bbcode_quote_head">Quote:
<b>Quote from mdc777 on March 10, 2014, 11:52 am</b>

everything FF says is technically true but misleading.
</div>


It isn't technically true that he was shot down twice in 18 days. it isn't technically true that he flew however many missions he said he flew in TTOTC. Or do you have knowledge to the contrary?</div>
</div>


Well, were the number of missions and shoot downs at least <b>"CLOSE ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK"</b> that "they don't impact unfavorably on the chase" ?



http://www.chasechat.com/chat/?minglefor...pic&t=1206



Forrest does not seem to be a big fan of the Vietnam War, nor any war where politicians send men to die in countries that didn't attack us first...



.
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