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My failed Gallina Solve
05-21-2014, 09:12 PM,
My failed Gallina Solve
I sent this stream of conscious e-mail to Forrest this morning after seeing his statement that the solve had nothing to do with a dam. This is a slightly edited version of the one I sent him. The edits don't conceal much. Just mainly re-reading on my part and thinking a little more. I'd kind of given up on my solution several months ago but with FF's statement that WWWH had nothing to do with a dam it was pretty much over. There's a bunch of stuff that I didn't tell him. Like how we wrote a computer program that searched for all the words hidden in the poem like "Fort Worth" is hidden in "your effort will be worth the cold" because if you drop the "ef" in "effort" and then drop "will be" you get "fort worth". Anyway we searched a fairly large dictionary for all statistically significant words hidden in that manner. For a long time "rainbow" popped up as statistically significant in the 2nd stanza. The significance varied depending on whether you ran it on the whole poem or individual stanzas. In any event as we refined our algorithm "rainbow" eventually dropped out of the running for statistical significance. So did all other words. Not ALL but all we could make any sense of anyway. Below is a slightly edited version of the e-mail I sent Forrest.

I just saw your remark that WWWH has nothing to do with a dam. I assumed from the beginning that it was El Vado dam. Many others assumed this too, but I never took that as reason not consider my own Chama solve. From what I could tell people were searching down by skull bridge for no reason at all. I figured people were searching randomly below El Vado. That "Ford" is English for "vado" gave me greater confidence. I figured, as did many others, that "home of Brown" was the store below El Vado, home to the NM record brown trout.

I guessed you learned about the Gallina in 1942 from this article in the Saturday Evening Post by Frank Hibben:,d.cGU

I figured you read that in 1942 and that you might have convinced your dad to take you there, or that you certainly would have gone there once you moved to NM.

I took the Robert Louis Stevenson poem "My Treasures" with its reference to stone of "White and yellow and gray" to be further support for the greater Piedra Lumbre area. I took the line "I can keep my secret where" to mean that you can keep your secret where everyone but you is dead. (N people can keep a secret if N-1 of them are dead.) The Gallina were slaughtered probably by the Chacoans or the Jemez who migrated through the area. In the 70's the archeologists seemed to be agreed that the Jemez were descended from the Gallina but I don't think that is true. The anglo historian of the Jemez says that the Jemez claim to have wiped out the Gallina perhaps in just a few days. I don't think I believe that either. In any event I assumed that keeping "the secret where" was reference to dead people who weren't in a grave yard.

I started researching the area and discovered the Gallina and an article by William Boone Douglass in El Palacio Volume 4 Number 2 (EP42). Douglass claims to have "discovered" rainbow bridge in Utah. He was guided to Rainbow Bridge by one of the Wetherills. I can't remember which one right now. In the EP article Douglass surveyed the Gallina heartland and wrote of 42 towers that had been destroyed in war. I liked the 42s both in the journal title and the number of towers. Douglass focused on two Townships, Range 1 and Range 2. He reused the numbers.

Since I interpreted "not far but too far to walk" to mean something like: "not four but two four two" I was kind of happy with all this. It turns out there's a line of ruins that makes a bearing of 242 that begins with a shrine that Douglass labeled 42 in Range 2 on the map and ends with another shrine in Range 1 that he also labeled 42. That line points to the setting sun on the winter solstice. Along the line is a ruin that Douglass labeled 54 (a deck and two jokers?) and some others. Near the middle, as viewed from Ruin 54 to the southwest the line cuts through a notch between two mountain peaks. On the solstice the sun drops through that notch. I never actually found Ruin 54 or the western Shrine 42 but my best estimates had them on the bearing line 242 that runs from the eastern shrine 42. So starting with the eastern shrine 42 you have 42, 54, mountain notch, 42. The 42's are suggestive of being ends of a rainbow as 42 degrees is the critical angle of a rainbow. I figured one of those 42s had to be the end of your rainbow. On the other hand there is a ruin near that line that I called 242, Ruin 24 Range 2. 24 being the number of lines in the poem. X being the 24th letter in the alphabet. That ruin was marked on the map with an X. I spent most of January and February looking for 24/2. Never convinced myself I found it but I searched every ruin in the vicinity with a metal detector anyway.

I figured "no place for the meek" was "un-inherited land" meaning land that was taken from the people, probably on the Rio Chama land grant. I was never too sure about "drawing nigh". People have claimed that means "west" but I don't know. I always thought you were describing heading south on the Chama and then heading west on the Gallina which means I had to go right on the Gallina, not left. But I also figured that the chest was on the left bank of the Gallina so I was ok with it.

Douglass wrote of the Indians hauling water from the Chama and Gallina up thousands of feet onto the mesas above, thus heavy loads and water high. I figured you can't paddle up the Rio Gallina so that's no paddle up your creek.

I figured "been wise" was a reference to Big Ben in London. In Important Literature you had "Great Gatsby", "For Whom The Bell Tolls" and Time magazine in the trash: Great, Bell Tolls, Time = Big Ben = Clock. "been wise" meant "ben wise" meant "clock wise" as in the compass bearing.

I figured the blaze was that mountain notch with the sun dropping into it on the solstice and that "look quickly down" meant look down into the blazing sun on the winter solstice. (one definition of quickly is something like " blaze") Along that line is Shrine 42 which happens to be near the end of a cuesta. All of this is near Hibben's Cuchillo House (which he discussed in the Sat. Eve. Post article). I think Hibben said he found 9 corpses in there. I liked the spot where the quest ceased being the end of a cuesta but not where the treasure was hidden. So I was pretty happy with it being Ruin 24 Range 2.

I spent many many days tromping around out there exploring those ruins. It was fun. Probably the most fun was climbing up onto a ridge high above Llaves. (a word that is key!) I didn't think the treasure was up there. I just wanted to go there. I will go back there. There is a niche up on one of those high ruins that Douglass was unable to explore. I expect there are some interesting artifacts in there if they haven't all been stolen. I don't know how many people have ever been in there. It is difficult to find and once there the access is difficult. I am going to take a climbing buddy up there. I am barely a rock climber but my buddy is an ace. I hope he'll be able to get me into that niche. Even if he can't get me in, he might get himself in with a camera.

I could go on and on with this reasoning but it pretty much collapses with your damn dam revelation, although I guess I could put myself on the Chama by following the W Brazos (W Arm -> warm ?) but it seems pretty arbitrary.

I had kind of already concluded that my solve wasn't going to pan out when I stumbled across your comment on Dal's site.

Thanks for the education! I had a ball learning about the drama that unfolded 700 years ago just a stone's throw from my back door.

05-21-2014, 10:24 PM,
My failed Gallina Solve
John, enjoyed Your Solve. People wonder why we do this. Just The shear thinking process and history study is fun. Great read, I've put similar time and energy...into this chase. Always enjoy your posts.
05-22-2014, 12:37 AM,
My failed Gallina Solve
Good post. Liked the Gallina information.

I figured that's where you've been going all this time, at least from what you've said in the past. But like you said, it's and education. Nothing ever has to be lost as far as what we choose to do. I too have used some of the same ideas/information to get me to the Rio Chama Wilderness and with several different solves within that area and although I didn't find it, I did find some nice artifacts and some knowledge. I probably went up there and searched that 8.25 mile stretch "north" of SF at least 20-25 times. There were just so many connections in geology, ancient geological text and history there. All the colors of the rainbow in the strata. Scrapbooks: It reminded me of the recipe he gave for the pimento cheese and the colors described and a cold bowl with grey outline. Other things-- the land grant remark with the "Dona Eis Requiem" with Mother Mary and the boy and girl signifying the deaths that occurred in the area and "Chaves" canyon meaning "the keys" in Portuguese where one of the two died; The two parrotlets that looked like the two dams together standing on cut up pieces of paper that said "Ford Super Crew XLT"; The many omegas in the river with one back-to back omegas where I found some great glyphs under an overhang; Reclamation Markers; Numerous tree blazes; Spanish signs in rock formations; Skull/scull bridge/ The Phantoms cave/skull cave; Ojitos Springs; Chama Land Grant; Monastery; Georgia O'keeffe -- just to name a few connections. There are many more. Yeah, it seemed like the perfect place. But I gave up on that place back in the fall. I just couldn't find it.

Amazing how different our ideas can be. But at least it's getting narrowed down further. I won't argue with that. I'll keep thinking.

"But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be the shepherd." - Jules Winnfield
05-22-2014, 01:53 AM,
My failed Gallina Solve
I also liked this spot, but it was much to difficult for a flat lander when I began this adventure. My first solve took me to forest rd. 151. Also where I got my speeding ticket. Since then, or until now, I had avoided the Rio Arribba area, but this last week I made it to the Fenboree! On Forest Rd. 151 how coincidental is that? This is however no place for the meek. And yes I looked under the bridge, I wrote Angie's and my name in the sand... John Brown, you and Project Y are very informative... good luck!
05-22-2014, 02:25 AM,
My failed Gallina Solve

<div class="bbcode_quote_head">Quote:
<b>Quote from Jason on May 21, 2014, 10:53 pm</b>

Absolutely incredible!

Did Fenn respond?

He said I "was educational".

Probably the funniest thing was going to Shrine 42 for the first time and the forest was on fire. Talk about a blaze!

I dunno if it came through, but for me "the word that is key" was "rainbow:" sheesh, a line of ruins with 42's on both ends and the sun in the middle? How rainbowy can you get? He was shot down almost on the solstice while flying into the sun at 250 degrees. He wasn't flying directly into it because if he had been the bearing would've been about 242, but looking 8 degrees off from directly into the sun is not much different than looking directly into the sun. I guess I checked the solstice for 1969. I'd have to dig out my notes to be sure but I think It was the day he went to the waterfall which was either the day he was rescued or the next.

I didn't know that "chaves" is Portugese for keys. Llaves is Spanish for keys. They're pretty similar.
05-22-2014, 02:46 AM,
My failed Gallina Solve

<div class="bbcode_quote_head">Quote:
<b>Quote from Jim Hawkins on May 22, 2014, 2:53 am</b>

I also liked this spot, but it was much to difficult for a flat lander when I began this adventure. My first solve took me to forest rd. 151. Also where I got my speeding ticket. Since then, or until now, I had avoided the Rio Arribba area, but this last week I made it to the Fenboree! On Forest Rd. 151 how coincidental is that? This is however no place for the meek. And yes I looked under the bridge, I wrote Angie's and my name in the sand... John Brown, you and Project Y are very informative... good luck!

I wish I could have gone to Fenboree. My wife had surgery a few days before so I needed to be at home. The stretch of water from the monastery down to Big Eddy is a lot of fun to paddle. I used to canoe the river with my kids when they were little. Sometimes they'd get me to pull out after skull bridge and run that section again. I always thought of the RIo Chama camp ground as luxury when I was out treasure hunting. I didn't go there much. From the intersection of the dam road (96) and 84/285 it is about 50 minutes home and 40 minutes to the Rio Chama camp ground. Distances there are so funny. From the monastery to the tip of the Golondrinas mesa is less than 5 miles but it's a two hour drive. The view from the tip of that mesa is spectacular on a clear day. You start looking northwest up the Gallina, then rotate and look south down the Chama, and keep rotating until you're looking northeast up the Chama. Through almost the entire rotation you're looking at red ribbon rock. It is hallucinogenic and simply spectacularly beautiful. We'll go camping there again. It is not an easy place to get to.
05-22-2014, 03:38 AM,
My failed Gallina Solve

<div class="bbcode_quote_head">Quote:
<b>Quote from wishiIwasRich on May 21, 2014, 11:24 pm</b>

John, enjoyed Your Solve. People wonder why we do this. Just The shear thinking process and history study is fun. Great read, I've put similar time and energy...into this chase. Always enjoy your posts.

I read on the order of 1,000 pages of history on the Gallina. I retyped a big chunk of Hibben's dissertation so that I could search it. Hibben ran off with Brownie Pack. She was married to Arthur Pack. Arthur is the guy who turned the Ghost Ranch into a dude ranch.

The Gallina headlands are pretty close to Chaco Canyon. They're only about 60 miles apart. There was a major drought in the 1100's and I think a war between the Gallina and the Chacoans. One estimate had the war killing something like 2/3's of the Gallina but they survived! The Chacoans ended up depopulating Chaco canyon then around 1150 presumably because of the war and drought, but the Gallina hung on for another full century. The Gallina ended about 1275. I guess it is possible that the Jemez wiped them out in days. When I said I didn't believe it I was thinking of the Gallina at their peak. I didn't believe they could have been wiped out in just a few days. There were too many but I guess by the 13th century they were barely hanging on. According to the Jemez Pueblo historian, Bill Whatley, the Jemez were migrating through from the 4 corners area. An advance party met the Gallina and were taken in by them. But then after a few days the Gallina turned on the Jemez and killed the advance party not knowing that the main body of the Jemez was a few days behind. If the Gallina were so weakened from war with the Chacoans maybe they could have been wiped out in just a few days. It is funny. This is Jemez oral history, but the archeologists were claiming that the Jemez were the descendants of the Gallina. There are no NAGPRA claims on the Gallina remains that have been removed. One other tidbit I learned was this. I heard that the Zia claim that the Gallina area is their ancestral home land. That is pretty wild in terms of the history that is accepted by white scholars. I don't know how accurately the white scholars have nailed down the histories of the pueblo people. For sure there is a lot of stuff the Puebloans simply won't tell archeologists. The scholars aren't dummies but they're trying to piece all this stuff together from the physical remains of the ruins and make it consistent with what the puebloans tell them. I think it is really difficult to get it all correct. The Gallina have no confirmed (by white scholars) descendants. According to Douglass, the Santa Clarans claimed to be descendants of the Gallina. Basically it comes down to this. Either the Gallina were completely exterminated or they weren't. If they weren't completely exterminated then they have descendants. If they have descendants they might be the Jemez, the Zia, or the Santa Clarans, or perhaps some other group. It is opaque. The bit with the Zia is very interesting to me because it isn't in the books. It was just a tidbit I picked up out there and it contradicts accepted history.
05-22-2014, 06:15 AM,
My failed Gallina Solve
All this would have been a quite interesting discussion had you made it to Fennboree. Darn real world problems getting in the way!
05-22-2014, 06:20 AM,
My failed Gallina Solve
Hey John thanks for sharing your solution with us all. Understanding how people think and interpret the poem is very interesting to most readers. Initially I thought about dams but when I realized that only a few of 36000 had correctly identified the correct WWWH I felt there is no way it could be a dam unless it was very obscure. I am wondering why you chose Winter solstice when FF explicitly said you could search any time but the best times to search was after April (indicating avoid the Winter months)? He also said not to mess with the poem but I noticed you were looking for scrambled words within the poem and deriving 242 from too war to walk. You are a smart man so I am wondering what motivated you to go against what Forrest was directing? I am not trying to be critical - I just am trying to understand your logic. I do really like the Ford/Vado connection but recently I have learned to down play anything that is not directly in the poem.

Thanks once again for sharing your very interesting solution!

The Wolf
05-22-2014, 06:51 AM,
My failed Gallina Solve
Wow! What a great adventure. I would have loved to have gone along with you and seen those ruins. I would have gone even knowing in advance Forrest's gold wasn't there. Thanks for posting it.


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