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Butterfly/Flutterby
06-23-2015, 09:07 AM,
#1
Butterfly/Flutterby
His butterfly / flutterby comment in the book seems to be a strong hint pointing to anagrams in the puzzle. But could it be hinting at something else?



I am convinced that the puzzle is a non-linear system. Several characteristics of it seem to point that way. The whole is greater than the some of its parts, the end of the trail is in the middle of the poem, the TS Eliot quote, etc. IMO the nonlinearty of it is what makes it so difficult to solve. Most solutions seem to be solving in a linear fashion.



So could he be hinting at the "Butterfly Effect", part of chaos theory where a small change in initial conditions creates a large effect later within a nonlinear system? He says that the poem will lead to the treasure "if you know where to start".



Thoughts?
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06-23-2015, 09:29 AM,
#2
Butterfly/Flutterby
Who knows if ff ever completed a treasure hunt. Making one up is totally different than winning one. He has no reference point to know if this is hard or easy. So much of what he says must be completely discounted. When he says you can go right to it, that means nothing. He's looking at it from the other end than us. When he says if you know where to start, kind of goes along with the first clue is the hardest. I agree the first may be hard but right now I am thinking some of the clues in the middle may be easier but it gets awfully hard at the final two or three clues again. So much of what he says is meant solely to throw people off. People continue to arrive there, means what? That state, that national forest, that continent, who knows? Within 200 feet? What, elevation, distance, barometric pressure, 2 centipedes?



I am just glad that I enjoy hiking. I've seen some amazing stuff, and for that I can be grateful to Mr. Fenn.
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06-23-2015, 09:35 AM,
#3
Butterfly/Flutterby
Jack,



This is a good topic for several reasons. First, it ties in with discussion in threads “Unwarranted Assumptions About The Chase” and “Codes and Cypers” about whether one needs anything except the poem and map. As a “poem purist” (which definition is a bit nebulous), I readily conceded that there are hints in the book that, although not necessary, may help. This is an example of one such hint.



Second point: The non-linearity is a bit difficult to define / assess in relation to this, but I believe it’s basically as you’re describing. An incorrect start, propogated through incorrect follow-on work, will take one far from a correct finish.



I believe that when Forrest states that solving his puzzle will allow one to walk right up to the treasure, that is exactly what he means.

.

astree
=====

https://www.allmovie.com/movie/v46056

“Poetry is the art of saying what you mean but disguising it”
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06-23-2015, 09:45 AM,
#4
Butterfly/Flutterby
Jack,



F has said there are no codes or cyphers in the poem and that you should start at the beginning. He said there may be subtle hints in his books if you can find them but I dont think they amount to much and more likely F just wants you to buy his books. I dont think its solvable in a non-linear fashion although the hints in the poem are out of place, the clues to the trail appear to be consecutive.


"Let me tell you something else. I've seen a lot of spinals solves, Dude, and this guy is a fake. A ****ing goldbricker." -Walter Sobchack
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06-23-2015, 10:39 AM,
#5
Butterfly/Flutterby


<div class="bbcode_quote_head">Quote:
<b>Quote from Jack on June 23, 2015, 10:07 am</b>

His butterfly / flutterby comment in the book seems to be a strong hint pointing to anagrams in the puzzle. But could it be hinting at something else?



I am convinced that the puzzle is a non-linear system. Several characteristics of it seem to point that way. The whole is greater than the some of its parts, the end of the trail is in the middle of the poem, the TS Eliot quote, etc. IMO the nonlinearty of it is what makes it so difficult to solve. Most solutions seem to be solving in a linear fashion.



So could he be hinting at the "Butterfly Effect", part of chaos theory where a small change in initial conditions creates a large effect later within a nonlinear system? He says that the poem will lead to the treasure "if you know where to start".



Thoughts?
</div>


Good thought about the butterfly effect and nonlinear systems. Getting one clue wrong will lead to increasingly incorrect results as a person works their way through the poem. However, I doubt that is what Forrest had in mind. He may never have even heard of Chaos Theory. All the science and engineering training he had while in the Air Force happened in the 1950s, long before Chaos Theory came on the scene.



When I first read his butterfly / flutterby comment, I thought of something else entirely. Forrest has said he likes to change words around, bend words, intentionally misspell words, etc. in order to make a point. So what point might he be making by changing the word butterfly to flutterby? I suspect he thinks it makes more sense as a name. After all, what does butter have to do with it? Watching them fly they do seem to flutter. Maybe he is saying flutterby is the name they should have been given. Hard to argue with that. Is he making an analogy with something else that maybe he thinks should have been known by another name than it is? Who can say?



mdavis19
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06-23-2015, 10:45 AM,
#6
Butterfly/Flutterby
I have come to a conclusion that the reason for so much ambiguity and failure to solve clues is that it's a two step process, for example , I'll use anagrams, let's say I find "Trout Manor" in an anagram , I now have to solve this phrase. Is it house of trout,( spawning pool) or is it a manner of the way they swim or breed, and then how does it relate to places in real world versus map, this two step , sometime 3 step solve always leaves ample opportunity to have an incorrect piece ( from 9 to 18+) and never a real solid solve in your hands.

To Fenn it would seem to have only one anagram but to us we could run hundreds and find 2 or 3 that fit, use them , and mis-solve.

And yes , if you notice, Fenn never included Anagrams in his very extensive ( no codes)list , and they should of been listed at the top.....



Reply
06-23-2015, 11:00 AM,
#7
Butterfly/Flutterby
I think that ff is extremely, outrageously, subtle. Here's an idea that I have very little basis for. Flutterby and about 10 or 12 lines in the poem could be hinting a certain time of year/time of life. Meek,blaze, and wood could mean quaking aspen. Answers, chest, peace, why, loads, cold, halt, bold, nigh each have so many varied meanings. Lay that on top of 10 or 20 thousand geographic areas and the possibilities start multiplying towards the infinite. Anyway Jack you are always talking about nonlinear, maybe we need to add a time element. Perhaps some clues aren't talking about a place, they're talking about a time.
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06-23-2015, 11:14 AM,
#8
Butterfly/Flutterby


<div class="bbcode_quote_head">Quote:
<b>Quote from Jack on June 23, 2015, 10:07 am</b>

His butterfly / flutterby comment in the book seems to be a strong hint pointing to anagrams in the puzzle..
</div>


Hi Jack. If a person spends enough time and effort in trying to find the correct ones, I think they will be found. It might take a couple of years to do it, though.
Reply
06-23-2015, 01:22 PM,
#9
Butterfly/Flutterby
i think the poem has tricked a lot of you because you think things have to be perfect. like an anagram has to have all the letters. of course how can you determine significance if you got lax on rules of significance. by placement, context and repetition, thats how.



also, there are certain anagrams in the poem where one specific letter is missing from the anagram, and that is part of the clue

Reply
06-23-2015, 01:24 PM,
#10
Butterfly/Flutterby


<div class="bbcode_quote_head">Quote:
<b>Quote from Chris Yates on June 23, 2015, 2:22 pm</b>

i think the poem has tricked a lot of you because you think things have to be perfect. like an anagram has to have all the letters. of course how can you determine significance if you got lax on rules of significance. by placement, context and repetition, thats how.



also, there are certain anagrams in the poem where one specific letter is missing from the anagram, and that is part of the clue
</div>


Q: did you follow rules of capitalization?



A: rules? whose rules?

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