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Re-posted idea
11-13-2017, 02:48 PM,
#11
RE: Re-posted idea
(11-13-2017, 02:31 PM)realistrealist Wrote:
(11-13-2017, 02:27 PM)FennMaster Wrote:
(11-13-2017, 02:02 PM)realistrealist Wrote: I agree with John on some of the crazy poem readings as they aren't simple like ff intimated it'd be if solved correctly.
I'm sure you'll agree, a "crazy reading" of the poem doesn't mean more than the poem is needed;
it simply means a better interpretation is needed.

Quote:I disagree on whether or not something concrete is written within it as I didn't write the poem.

Fenn clearly states "All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.”

It is pretty tough to disagree with that, unless you think he's lying?

Crazy reading as in creating codes and anagrams when Fenn has stated none are needed. Better interpretation needed - yes - thus Fenn's statements about no one discovering the one useful thing to help solve it.

No, I meant definitive and self-evident... ie. the poem confirms the precise location (twice). For example, the above is one interpretation - linking the locations of the direction stanzas back to the key stanzas would be a secondary confirmation of the correct location.

I see.
I think it is definitive, and will be self evident, once all is said and done.
Until then, there have been plenty of searchers who thought it was self evident that turned out to be wrong; so I plead the 5th on that one, for now.
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11-13-2017, 07:14 PM,
#12
RE: Re-posted idea
Work like this will likely end up with a solution. However, I would suggest that no matter how you re-jigger the words in the poem it is unlikely that they yield a result any more specific than as currently written.

Homophonic substitution could yield interesting results. So could opposites. So could a basic but clever repositioning of letters or syllables. Because each of those would result in new, more specific directions in theory.

Finally, though Fenn says not to 'mess with the poem' is he not like the teachers who said, "Do not touch" (in red in TTOTC) regarding the art in his gallery? He proceeded to encourage the students to break that rule and touch the bronze. I believe, similarly, that the only way the poem is unambiguous is that information must be contained that is specific down to a 10x10 inch location.
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11-13-2017, 07:17 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-13-2017, 07:59 PM by John Brown.)
#13
RE: Re-posted idea
(11-13-2017, 01:00 PM)FennMaster Wrote:
(11-13-2017, 12:38 PM)John Brown Wrote:
(11-13-2017, 12:10 PM)realistrealist Wrote: I'm simply arguing for more analysis of the poem and less of the distractions and other tertiary information.

... They analyzed and analyzed and analyzed the poem claiming that they would solve it by poem alone which, of course, doesn't make a lick of sense. ...

ff said “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. ”

When considering the above quote, how can you justify saying "it doesn't make a lick of sense"?

Just because no one has done it doesn't mean it can't be done.

Read what I wrote. There were people who claimed that with nothing other than the poem they were going to be led to a place on the ground. That is manifestly impossible. With nothing other than the poem then you have no knowledge of any place on the ground. You have no knowledge there is even a planet earth. Now if you mean 'nothing other than the poem plus a whole bunch of other unspecified stuff that might be considered "common knowledge" (like places on the ground, the existence of planet earth, etc)' then that might be possible but the rub is that that one woman's "common knowledge" is the next woman's "never heard of it before". What is "common knowledge" varies from person to person.' I'm pretty sure that very few people would argue that they could sit with the poem and make the chest pop into their lap but that is essentially what is being claimed by people who claim the poem and poem alone will lead them to the chest.

EDIT to ADD: Do you really believe that without using the roman/latin alphabet you can solve the poem? If you think that you can solve it without using the common alphabet then all those little marks in that start "As I have gone alone in there" have no natural interpretation. Those are not letters and "As" "I" "have" "gone" etc are not "words". It is just a glyph, like the artist formerly known as Prince uses for his name, and you have to figure out what those marks might mean. Now you have these weird glyphs that look like English words using the alphabet that most Americans learned as children. I don't think he did that. I think he assumed a large quantity of 'common knowledge."
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11-13-2017, 07:44 PM,
#14
RE: Re-posted idea
(11-13-2017, 07:14 PM)nkown Wrote: Work like this will likely end up with a solution. However, I would suggest that no matter how you re-jigger the words in the poem it is unlikely that they yield a result any more specific than as currently written.

Homophonic substitution could yield interesting results. So could opposites. So could a basic but clever repositioning of letters or syllables. Because each of those would result in new, more specific directions in theory.

Finally, though Fenn says not to 'mess with the poem' is he not like the teachers who said, "Do not touch" (in red in TTOTC) regarding the art in his gallery? He proceeded to encourage the students to break that rule and touch the bronze. I believe, similarly, that the only way the poem is unambiguous is that information must be contained that is specific down to a 10x10 inch location.

'But if you’re gonna find the treasure, you’re gonna have to solve the riddle that’s in my poem."

What is the riddle? Is it the only question in the poem - "why is it I must go?" or is it simply a problem meant to be solved?

I agree you aren't required to mess with letter positioning or anything complicated. You are simply supposed to follow the key's route through the poem. Messing with the poem would mess up the real route.
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11-13-2017, 08:18 PM,
#15
RE: Re-posted idea
No actually I think you must 'mess' with the poem in some fashion. Clearly, no one has figured out exactly how to do that.

FF has stated that the person who figures it out will know for sure and walk right to the TC. That tells me that we do not need to rely on metaphor or ambiguous markers (warm waters, anonymous creeks) to have a discrete solve. If that were the case then, frankly, this would be a lousy puzzle.

However, I believe there are clues in the book and in the SB's (see note below regarding the SB's) that can be thought of as 'sub-puzzles' that can with high certainty be 'solved' in a non-trivial manner. That would indicate to me that in fact the puzzles created are pretty damn clever indeed... and further that it's likely the poem is pretty damn clever and deceptively simple in hindsight. FF has said as much himself.

Finally -- regarding the SB's. I have long maintained that there were significant puzzles that can be solved within the SB's that point to a general location (one that has been mentioned on this forum, but not frequently) and that meshes with FF's personal connections and values. Further, several of them do exactly that and are reinforced in TTOTC. For a while many on here dismissed the SB's as a sideshow or distraction. Now OUAW comes out and basically it's filled with SB's that are slightly changed or altered. I believe that FF did not spend all of that time writing over 150 SB's and publish a book with them... I believe he is urging us along to get this done while he is still around... and to prevent any further controversies.

I also believe that it's a bit of a Willy Wonka test in this case. I strongly suspect the reward includes something far more valuable than what is in the chest alone.
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11-13-2017, 08:24 PM,
#16
RE: Re-posted idea
(11-13-2017, 07:14 PM)nkown Wrote: Work like this will likely end up with a solution. However, I would suggest that no matter how you re-jigger the words in the poem it is unlikely that they yield a result any more specific than as currently written.

Homophonic substitution could yield interesting results. So could opposites. So could a basic but clever repositioning of letters or syllables. Because each of those would result in new, more specific directions in theory.

Finally, though Fenn says not to 'mess with the poem' is he not like the teachers who said, "Do not touch" (in red in TTOTC) regarding the art in his gallery? He proceeded to encourage the students to break that rule and touch the bronze. I believe, similarly, that the only way the poem is unambiguous is that information must be contained that is specific down to a 10x10 inch location.

Interesting post. The following line of yours gave me a thought to ask you about- However, I would suggest that no matter how you re-jigger the words in the poem it is unlikely that they yield a result any more specific than as currently written.

Would you say if one re-jiggers the first line of the poem’s third stanza to say “From there, it’s the place” instead of “From there, it’s no place” then that would pass the test of yielding a result more specific than as currently written? If a latter poem clue says it’s the place, that sounds like a confirmation of a place that is specific and correct that we’re searching for. Much more so than how the poem is currently written.
-.-..The keeper of the key
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11-13-2017, 09:32 PM,
#17
RE: Re-posted idea
(11-13-2017, 11:09 AM)realistrealist Wrote: Because it was deleted elsewhere.

The poem is meant to be read in two parts. The directions are written in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th stanzas so Fenn can keep the "key" stanzas close together (rather than alternating... key, direction, key, direction, key, direction).

Stanza 1 provides the key to reading stanza 2. The key word "I-D-E-A" tells you how to read stanza 2 - you start with the first few words of sentence 1 and combine with last few words of sentence 2. You follow the lines through the stanza. The belief in Fenn being adamant about finding where WWWH is that he is trying to explicitly say WWWH at the bottom of a canyon as the poem references. People go right by this area because they didn't analyze the poem correctly - instead following a canyon away from clue 1 (in the canyon down where warm waters halt).

Stanza 1 reads, according to the key word:

Begin it in the canyon down,
where warm waters halt and take it
Not far, below the home of Brown,
But too far to walk, put in...

Stanzas 3 and 4 are much more difficult to "analyze." Stanza 1 starts off with "As I" which is perhaps a hint towards "So" (Spanish conversion). As you can see from stanzas 3, 4, 5, and 6 - the words "So" in stanzas 3 and 4 mirror "Just" in stanzas 5 and 6. The belief is that stanzas 5 and 6 are telling you that you must read stanzas 3 and 4 in reverse order to match their counter-parts, BUT we need to make sure we know which of the directions stanzas (3, 4) correspond to which of the key stanzas (5, 6) to know which of them we read first. Fenn ends every sentence in stanza 6 with "D" similarly to ending every sentence in stanza 4 with "E." Further, Fenn matches the rhyming (in reverse form) of stanza 5 with that of stanza 3 for two of the sentences. Thus... you are to read stanza 2 first (as described above), and then stanza 3 in reverse and stanza 4 in reverse.

The final trick is the final "I-D-E-A" on the outer edges of the poem. I believe in addition to reading stanzas 3 and 4 in reverse order, you must also alternate (like a spiral) beginning with the final sentence (reverse order) and going to first sentence then back to third sentence and finally to second sentence.

Stanza 3 then becomes:

Just heavy loads and water high.
From there it's no place for the meek,
There'll be no paddle up your creek,
The end is ever drawing nigh;

4th stanza:

Just take the chest and go in peace
If you've been wise and found the blaze
But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
Look quickly down, your quest to cease.

The colophon double omega/horseshoe from last page of TTOTC resembles the pattern seen in the last few stanzas.

https://imgur.com/a/x7JOT

Fenn is explicit in only needing the poem and a good map and he frequently mentions analyzing the poem... not many people care to analyze the poem and they simply try to match items on a map.

If you take what's above and what was in the forward of his recent book, it kind of makes sense with regards to the final clue. He told his friend the final clue would be found in his car by the museum in Denver.

According to the analysis above, the final line of the directions is "Look quickly down, your quest to cease." What is typically referred to as down below the Earth when it comes to religion/Christianity? Hell. What was Fenn planning on doing? Committing suicide. What would he have left in his car from his take-off point? The poem and a death note. I believe a final location that is view-able from the treasure site is something with the name "Hell" or "Devil" in it. The original intent of the comment to Preston was likely a double entendre (referring to location he was literally and figuratively going to). It would likely be the place where you exit the park or creek/location where you end up at (location of the chest).

The above directions when read that way damn near match every point going from Warm Creek in Silver Gate to Calcite Springs in Yellowstone (with home of Brown being Lamar Ranger Station). The only thing I can't reconcile with that is the "Put in" with respect to Buffalo Ford. It might supposed to be read, "Not far, the home of Brown, but too far to walk" and "put in below just heavy loads and water high." Obviously, this is a generalized area as opposed to specific so it's likely incorrect, but I'm sure someone will find the correct location eventually. I believe too many people are focused too much on the books and overlook the poem too much.

Are you serious?? How is all this "analysis" consistent with the idea of giving the poem to a child to solve? No child I know would come up with so much....ummmm....convoluted thinking.
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11-13-2017, 09:33 PM,
#18
RE: Re-posted idea
Think of it this way....

Anything that is a metaphor -- or even a series of metaphors -- is subject to ambiguity. If you string 9 of those together you are going to be left with very long odds indeed of anyone finding anything.

Consequently, I am of the belief that there is a method to unlock the an entirely different set of words from the poem. The metaphors of the poem will be maintained, but the 'new' words will be quite a specific set of instructions that anyone at all could use to go right to the TC. Only then could one 'walk with confidence' right to the chest.

No amount of WWWH speculation + paddles up creeks + blaze + quickly (up) down etc will do that.

I should add that this is not the first such puzzle created and all puzzles are made by people. So the reason it might have taken quite a while to create is that it needed to make sense both as an abstract poem (the one we read now) and a lockbox with a discoverable, but difficult method to unlock it.

I also think FF never expected a few people to perish in the process... and that he's trying to push it along a bit by helping us out with the SB's, OUAW, etc. Further, the scrapbook numbering system yields something very specific and man, that's a long game to play. Years of SB's and their numbers to get to the end of that puzzle. So he was playing for the long haul, but helping us out along the way.

Final thought: I'm enamored of the idea of redaction in the poem along with substitution. So, for example, he says in an interview -- see what I did there, I got rid of the 'd' in Knowlege. Ok. that seems purposeful to me. Similarly, there is an SB where he says, "I didn't say that quite right but I hope you know what I mean. It's important to have a method" or something to that effect (from memory).

In the end, it helps to know what words to look for by this method and that's why I think the purpose of the OUAW and SB hints gives you... a few key words to use to unscramble the poem.

At least I hope that's the case.
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11-13-2017, 10:07 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-13-2017, 10:18 PM by realistrealist.)
#19
RE: Re-posted idea
The child statement could refer to anything. Imagination is a key... Give it to a child because they have better imagination... Think up ideas. Children adapt quicker and learn faster. Open up your mind to a simple possibility - you aren't reading it correctly. What I wrote isn't convoluted at all in my opinion, it's pretty easy to see (aside from turning motion).

I like the substitution idea, but don't see anything definitive there. Based on everything that's been said it just seems there must be a proof within the poem.

Among others, I liked how beaten goes with "no paddle", "done it tired/weak", and TTOTC final chapter using 'beat" and story about "punishment."
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11-13-2017, 10:10 PM,
#20
RE: Re-posted idea
not at all convoluted... but also not at all specific in any way. Just more metaphors.
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